Curt - 2008-08-08 7:33 AM


Looks Great: http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=62269

Larry Smith - 2008-08-08 5:49 PMThreaded

steamboat - 2008-08-08 4:26 AM

Dose this replace Dress uniforms, or is it the old "undress" uniform that us old pharts wore?
If it does, then USN will stand apart from all Navies of the world in wearing whites and blues.
Now you can take that any way you want to.
As I recall, didn't Zummie's uniform changes all get recinded?
Steamboat sends

Flapper - 2008-08-08 3:41 PM Threaded?? Are we missing a link, Larry?

mike652 - 2008-08-09 11:21 PM

I love how some people credit Zumwalt for their decision to get out. I especially love it when it turns out it was before Zumwalt became CNO or before the uniform changes were in effect.
We made an almost switch to a new working uniform starting in 1973. There were so many problems with the new uniform that it was discontinued with full return to dungarees. The dress uniform changeover started in 1974 with full implementation by the end of ’75. Then the Navy went back, announcing the change in ’81, about the same time I found out I had made Chief.
A lot of us had to remember how to roll and tie the neckerchiefs so we could teach the "youngsters".

rjs2005 - 2008-08-11 8:43 AM

Ok, I'm back with my hat in hand. I've had some time to ponder my most recent thread and have come to the conclusion that my tone was completely out of line. I offer no excuses, other than to say I am fiercely protective of today's sailor. After 2 years of retirement and working in private industry, I've come to discover just how much I miss working with true shipmates.

I had no right to categorize the persons who responded here as whiners or refer to you as "the you damn kids get off my yard" crowd. By all accounts, each of you served our country with pride and honor, and as such have earned the right to question how our Navy is being managed. As a Chief, I should have and do know better, I chose not to respect that. For that slight, I offer my sincere apology.

I still disagree with those of you who insist that the uniform change is somehow stomping on the Navy's rich heritage, however. I remind you that the service and full dress uniforms will not change.

Consider the uniforms that are changing. For enlisted E1-E6, the summer whites and winter working blues (black shirt, black pants, and a black tie) are being replaced with a khaki shirt and black pants. This is NOT the Marines uniform, it is simply a reuse of Navy items we already have. The uniform will be worn year round. I remember when I joined, we had a uniform that was the "undress" uniform of choice.. Salt and Peppers.. white shirt and black trousers. It was serviceable and easier to maintain. In the Navy's infinite wisdom, that uniform went away in (I believe) 1986. We were left with summer whites and the aforementioned winter blues (Black Barts, Johnny Cash, whatever you chose to call them). Hell, when I was a Navy recruiter, I wasn't even allowed to wear that uniform in inner city Birmingham, for fear that I might be mistaken for a police officer and subsequently shot. The summer whites almost always got trashed before you got through the gate in the morning by:
1. The morning coffee
2. Change or keys in your pocket rubbing against something and leaving a black mark
3. The Kapok life vest/AILUP/duty belt the topside sentry was required to wear over his whites on weekends. (Of course, this will get no better when the sailor has to wear Service Dress Whites, they'll just have to learn).
Add to all this that these uniforms are NOT uniforms that make people think SAILOR, and I see no reason why this change doesn't make sense. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I am, I refer you to the Rules of the Chief number one. (The Chief is always right).

I am 100% completely with all of you in preserving the heritage of the Naval Service. I also wholeheartedly support the remembrance of our fallen shipmates and perpetuating their memory, which I know is the stated goal of USSVI. I remember the first time I encountered some of the heroes of WWII boats. I was a young First Class serving as a Recruit Company Commander in Orlando, FL. My young bride called me in tears, to tell me that she had just been in an accident and her car was a mess. I rushed home to check on her, and found her by the car talking to an elderly gentleman who had loaned her the phone, gave her a cup of coffee to calm her nerves, and was playing with my young son. He saw me in my white jumper with red rope and dolphins, and motioned for me to go into his house to get a cup of coffee. As I entered his home, I noticed a wooden set of dolphins over his fireplace. I asked him about the dolphins, and he informed me that he was a WWII subvet (Sorry, I don't remember which boat). We talked for a while and he asked me if I knew how many boats were lost in WWII. I told him I did not know. His face changed, and he stuck out a bony little finger and jabbed it in my chest and said these words to me: "How the hell can you know where you're going if you don't know where you've been?" You earned those fish on the backs of those men on eternal patrol, you owe it to them to honor their service by remembering!" I took that to heart.

Later in my career, I had the great honor to serve on USS NARWHAL (SSN 671). We had a terrific relationship with veterans of SS-167 NARWHAL, and I was honored to be in their presence. My spouse and I spent many hours in hotel hospitality rooms listening to (and in the case of my spouse, taking notes) stories of her rescue missions to the Phillipines to return refugees. Never in my life have I met finer men. I also learned about US Sub Vets, WWII and USSVI. I became very interested in joining USSVI. Allow me to explain why I have altered my position on that.

I have attended meetings in 3 different locations I have been stationed at, and each time I attended, I was summarily ignored by the members in attendance. I tried to introduce myself and was barely acknowledged, and not invited once into any conversations. Recently, I tried to find the nearest base to myself where I live now, and called a member. I asked for simple directions so that I may attend a meeting and was basically told "you have a map, don't you?" I'm a little dense, but that sure seems like an indicator that I'm not welcome. I would really like to be proven wrong on this. I truly miss the fellowship with brothers of the 'phin.

On a closing note, I would like to particularly apologize to Mr. Armstrong. I called you out in my post, probably because you were the most vocal. I understand your pride in smoke boats and understand that I feel similar about the boats I served on. I am proud of each one of them. I still refer to my E-Division on MARYLAND as "The Best Damn E-Div on the Waterfront", only because they were. I actually read one of your writings at my retirement ceremony, about Submarine Chiefs. I strived to be a Chief like that (to a certain degree). Too often in this day Chiefs are so preoccupied with making Senior Chief or Master Chief that they forget how they got there in the first place. I always lived by the creed "Sailors First, Sailors Always." I forgot that when I posted to you and the rest here, and I will not forget that again. I'm pretty sure I would have liked having you work for me, you seem like the kind of sailor I always tried to develop in my squids. No BS, work hard, play hard, never wavering, get the job done.

Thanks for the verbal bonk on the head. I needed it.

Chuck Brunson
EMCS(SS), Ret
SSBN 630G, SSN 676, 671, 712, SSBN 738G

rjs2005 - 2008-08-12 8:04 AM

Thanks for those who replied to my apology, I appreciate it. I was not looking for affirmation that I'm a good person or anything such as that, I know who I am and what I stand for, and that's all that matters. I did write some things that were not in keeping with my character, and I felt the need to extend my remorse for that. For my part, it's done with. Time to move on.
Or so I thought. I do feel compelled to respond to Smiley's comments. Perhaps I "took the bait", I tend to think not. Strong opinions were expressed and I lashed out at them. Everyone is entitled to their opinions whether you agree with them or not. I could have very well expressed my opinion without all of the negatives and made my point. I disagree with you on my need to apologize to Dex Armstrong. I unfairly lashed out at him, because his opinion was different than mine. I also do not believe for a single second that he harbors any ill feelings about today's "All Volunteer Military." He may not approve of the direction the Navy and the submarine force is going, and in many instances I completely agree, but I respect him for his service, and believe that he supports today's sailor. If I am wrong and he truly harbors negative feelings about the Nuclear Navy, that's his loss, not mine.

I disagree with those here who say that updating the undress uniform to an all-season design will somehow tarnish the tradition of Naval uniforms. I have pointed out and will continue to point out that a sailor is not defined by a white shirt and white trousers. A sailor is universally recognized by the jumper uniform and those uniforms will remain, unchanged, 13 buttons, square-knot tie, dixie cup and all. It is the most distinctive uniform of all of the services, and no one mistakes a sailor when he wears it. The one regret I had when I "put on the hat" of a Chief Petty Officer was that I would no longer be able to hit the beach in my dress blue jumper. (BTW, I have silver dolphin liberty cuffs in my jumper and was proud to show them right up to when I made Chief.)

As far as reconsidering joining USSVI, I encourage any submariner I see to get involved. I will probably look up the other base near here, and join the brotherhood some day. I just need to get over my perceived slight; that's my problem and I'm quite sure my presence or absence really doesn't make much difference anyway.

I'm done with this topic now. Let's move on.

Chuck

BlackBeard - 2008-08-13 12:58 AM

Hey Smiley... The friggin proof is in the PUDDING, not the putting.

BB

mike652 - 2008-08-09 11:55 PM

Chris - I might be off by a year, but I do not remember anyone wearing the light blue pull-over shirt and dark blue trousers until ’73. I got two sets about the time I got married, which was May ‘73. Hated them and used the trousers for tug-o-war with my St. Bernard.

BlackBeard - 2008-08-12 7:58 PM

Hey Smiley... The friggin proof is in the PUDDING, not the putting.

BB

rjs2005 - 2008-08-12 3:04 AM
... I disagree with those here who say that updating the undress uniform to an all-season design will somehow tarnish the tradition of Naval uniforms. I have pointed out and will continue to point out that a sailor is not defined by a white shirt and white trousers. A sailor is universally recognized by the jumper uniform and those uniforms will remain, unchanged, 13 buttons, square-knot tie, dixie cup and all. It is the most distinctive uniform of all of the services, and no one mistakes a sailor when he wears it. The one regret I had when I "put on the hat" of a Chief Petty Officer was that I would no longer be able to hit the beach in my dress blue jumper. (BTW, I have silver dolphin liberty cuffs in my jumper and was proud to show them right up to when I made Chief.)

Chuck

The Brat - 2008-08-15 3:24 PM

"Look at Mr. Uniform model....E-4 with five rows of ribbons"

Last time I checked a 1st Class Petty officer was an E6.

"lowering enlistment standards simply to fill its ranks...taking convicted criminals, lads with police records, high school drop-outs, bums, lads wandering around in our ghettos with no purpose or ambition and slow kids like that poor stupid bimbo from West Virginia".

I guess you have not talked to a military recruiter lately. Dex, all those things you mentioned worked during the days of the draft, but are no longer part of today's recruiting standards. In fact, it is MUCH more difficult to enter the military now than ever. If you have a criminal record, you can forget about joining unless you have a Congressperson in your pocket.

I work with Recruiters everyday and am proud to stand up and say that regardless of what "ghetto" you call home, as long as you can read, write, have a high school diploma, no criminal record, are physically fit and can pass the military entrance exam (ASVAB), you just might be allowed to join up. As for the ribbons, don't assume you know what PS1 Williams went through to obtain them. I know the Air Force gives them away, but as for the Navy, you still got to earn every one of them!

Just because you don't like the new uniform and are not currently serving yourself, does not give you the right to make racially degrading comments about the men and women who are serving today. Today's war is nothing like the wars of the past, but war is war and irregardless it's still ugly and these brave young men and women have VOLUNTEERED to carry on the legacy of all freedom fighters who have gone before them by defending your right to make racist comments about them.

Yeah, you're full of patriotism these days aren't you!

610ET - 2008-08-16 8:45 PM

Anyway, this post is now three pages and we still don't know the cover for the new U is. Anybody know?

Ric - 2008-08-16 7:38 PM

Well, just for the record the Navy Band out of Bremerton played at today's Tolling Of The Boats in Kirkland, Wa. dressed in Tropical Whites and looked wonderful. I tried to picture them in the new uniform and it wouldn't have had the same impact and the general public would not have even known they were sailors and Navy. Good to see them and hear them. Always a treat!!!